Deeper Waters

Hello everyone. I’ve had a fun evening. I do still ask your prayers. There’s a lot going on and I’m having to come to grips with a lot and it’s a lot of emotional upheaval especially. I don’t want to go into the details, but I do seek your prayers.

I now wish to move on to our Trinitarian commentary and tonight, we are going to finish up 1 Timothy and we’ll be in chapter 6. We will be looking at verses 15-16 with mainly starting at verse 11. Let’s go to the text.

¹¹But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. ¹²Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. ¹³In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you ¹⁴to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, ¹⁵which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, ¹⁶who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

I was quite surprised when I had Jehovah’s Witnesses at my apartment recently and they quoted verses 15-16 and they said that that was a description of Jesus. I’m not convinced that it is. I think this could be praise to God the Father, but let us consider what it says.

Note how he is described as immortal. This has shown up in 1 Tim. 1:17

¹⁷Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen

Note also how he is called the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. If this is referring to the Father, then this is interesting as this would be an ascription of deity then and this is what Jesus is called in the book of Revelation.

Yet what gets me to thinking it is God the Father the most is that this is one who is described as one who no one has seen or can see. This is the same terminology that is used of God the Father in John 1:18. Obviously, people saw Jesus and it is the hopes of Christians that we will see Jesus.

Now of course, I don’t hold to a modalistic concept and if the Witnesses want to say this is Jesus, then I think they will be in trouble with the concept of him possessing immortality, particularly in light of 1 Timothy 1:17 which is clearly talking about God the Father as it is in contrast to Christ. However, even if this is about the Father, we again have the carry over of Jesus being included in the divine identity which also makes him the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. In either case, we have an affirmation of who Jesus is and who the Father is.

Hello everyone! Welcome back to Deeper Waters. I’d like to ask first off for your continued prayers, first off on the situation I’ve mentioned, and second off in the case of my grandmother. I’ve heard word that she’s not doing too well. I’d appreciate your prayers. Tonight, we’re going to be continuing our Trinitarian commentary and we’ll be in the book of 1 Timothy. We’re emphasizing 1 Timothy 4:10 today, but I want to start at verse 9. I’m actually going to give a verse that I don’t think argues for the Trinity, but I want to give what I believe is a correct interpretation of.

⁹This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance ¹⁰(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

Okay. What’s going on in this passage? Is universalism being taught? How so? How can God be the savior of all men but especially of those who believe. Is this saying that God saves those who believe but at the same time that he also saves those who do not believe? It would seem that we have universalism then.

Or, is this talking about Jesus? After all, isn’t Jesus the savior? If Jesus is the savior and we’re saying God is the savior here, then do we have a slam dunk? Is this an unequivocal way of referring to Jesus as God?

However, as we have routinely seen and we do see in this letter, Lord usually refers to Christ.  God routinely refers to the Father. I do not believe there is any reason to think any differently in this case. We have seen a few isolated incidents where Jesus is referred to as God, and we will see a few more, but this is not the norm.

Furthermore, we have the first verse of this epistle:

¹Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

Where there is a clear distinction between Christ Jesus and God and God is listed as savior.

So what is going on in this passage? God is seen as the living God which means he is the one who is real and he is the one who is active. He is the one who is overseeing the world and making sure that all runs according to plan.

What I believe is going on then, to which I am in agreement with Guthrie on in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, is that this is saying that God is the preserver of all men. We have too many passages that do indicate that some people do sadly die without Christ and they do face never-ending consequences for that. Savior in this context then means that God is the preserver of all men as all men live because of him, but God does have a special eye  on those who are in the family of believers.

We shall continue tomorrow.

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Deeper Waters where we are continuing our Trinitarian Bible Study. We are in the Pauline epistles now and tonight, we’re going to be looking at 1 Timothy 3:16. This is a passage that has much debate over the wording in the manuscript, but I think it can easily be agreed it shows a high Christology. Let’s go to the text:

¹⁶Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

So what’s the textual question? The question at the beginning is if the “He appeared in a body” refers to Christ or God as some manuscripts do have God. It is most likely, however, that the word is really “os” and is referring to Jesus.

We will go with this interpretation, however, it would lend to a stronger argument for the identity of Jesus if it did say “God”, but we can’t go with a reading just because we like it. We need to go by what is most likely in the text and it seems most scholars of the text would agree that it should be “He.”

The first statement that we have is that he appeared in a body. This should tell us that it is not the natural mode of existence of the one who appeared in a body, and Jesus being fully God does not naturally dwell in a body. Instead, he willingly took one on to complete the divine mission. This was already a form of humility that brings to mind the Philippians kenotic passage.

The vindication of the Spirit would refer to the being made alive in the Spirit. Jesus was vindicated in the face of his oppressors. While they accused him of blasphemy, God approved of the work that he did and thus verified all of his claims. In response to the same he experienced on Earth, he was honored by the Father. The honor/shame paradigm is rich here.

He was seen by angels. There are mixed opinions on what this means. Some think it refers to fallen angels to whom Jesus appeared in triumph to. I would instead think that it would refer to holy angels who were witnesses of the incarnation. We can also remember that angels were there at the resurrection.

He was preached among the nations as well. His message spread all around the world. This is just a few decades after the resurrection event and already, the gospel had spread amongst the nations. I do not know of any scholar of the time period who would deny how far the Christian message had spread.

It was preached successfully as he was believed on in the world as well. The gospel had spread far and had many converts. We know that there was an expulsion from Rome within a few years of the events of the resurrection.

Finally, he was taken up in glory. What does this mean? Could it refer to the ascension? It could. It could also mean his glorification as a result of the preaching of the gospel to the nations. Or, it could be some combination of both.

Either way, we have a high Christology and the fact that this is a hymn sung in honor of Christ should show that he was seen in a high light in the early church.

We shall continue tomorrow.

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Deeper Waters where we are continuing what has been called our Trinitarian Commentary on the Bible. We started this a long time ago, such that I can’t even remember the exact date, and today, we have made it to the book of 1 Timothy. Tonight, we’re going to be in 1 Timothy 2 and looking at a verse that has been used to argue against the deity of Christ. Our text today is 1 Timothy 2:5:

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

In their booklet Should You Believe In The Trinity?, the Watchtower says the following:

The disciples viewed Jesus as the “one mediator between God and men,” not as God himself. (1 Timothy 2:5) Since by definition a mediator is someone separate from those who need mediation, it would be a contradiction for Jesus to be one entity with either of the parties he is trying to reconcile. That would be a pretending to be something he is not.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_05.htm

I find this an incredibly odd statement. One wonders if when the Governing Body needs a mediator to settle a dispute if that means they somehow have to track down a non-human in order to represent each of them. Now we could say it would not be proper for one person to be both mediator and to be one being mediated.

I also wonder if the Witnesses are denying that Jesus is a man in this passage since Jesus is the one mediator between God and man.  If Jesus cannot mediate for us if he is God, then it would seem just as much that he cannot mediate for us if he is man. Last I checked, I have not come across any Jehovah’s Witnesses however who deny the humanity of Christ, especially since they have a book out called The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived that is, of course, about Jesus.

However, this does fit in just fine with the doctrine of the Trinity. We see that Jesus is the mediator, which will be further expounded on when we look at the book of Hebrews. Jesus comes on behalf of the Father and represents what the Father desires to do on the Earth. In that sense, he pronounces forgiveness on those who have sinned, but also in that sense, when he is directly sinned against, such as at the crucifixion, he asks forgiveness for those who are sinning against him.

The humanity of Christ in this case is emphasized because he is our mediator and as Hebrews says, Jesus needed to be made in every way like his brethren. In an ironic twist, it is the doctrine of the Trinity that in fact explains this verse the best. Jesus can mediate on behalf of man because he does bear the nature of man. He can also mediate on behalf of God because he has the full nature of God. God can use go-betweens like angels or even humans for many actions, but as one who would directly represent him, anyone who is less than him could not accurately fulfill that role.

In the end, Jesus is indeed the one mediator and there can be no reconciliation with the Father apart from him. Why? Because of the unique status of who Jesus is. He is God coming to us and he is man before God. Only the God-man can be a mediator.

We shall continue tomorrow.

Welcome back everyone to Deeper Waters. Readers by now know that we are in a Trinitarian Bible Study. We have been going through the Bible looking at what we can find on the doctrine of the Trinity. Right now, we are in the Pauline epistles and tonight, we are going to start the pastoral epistles which begin with 1 Timothy. Our verses tonight will be 15-17. Let’s go to the text:

¹⁵Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. ¹⁶But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.¹⁷Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To begin with, let’s be sure we’re all at the same ground on the cross. Christ Jesus came to save sinners. Paul realized that he was the worst. This is my contention with any of us if we look at the cross. We have to be able to say that we are the worst. None of us can look at the cross and say “Well geez. I’m a pretty good guy. I’m not that bad.” No. There is no room to lift yourself up at the cross.

Paul sees this as the basis for his being shown mercy however. Since he is the worst of sinners, Christ can show how awesome his grace is. Note that he speaks of the unlimited patience of Christ. Christ is willing to forgive the worst of sinners and is therefore willing to forgive anyone.

However, couched in that is the statement that all who believe on Christ will receive eternal life. Paul makes the focal point again be the response to Christ. In the Old Testament, we would expect the response to YHWH to be the main reason, but in the New Testament, it is the response to Christ.

The next verse is a doxology to God, but I find it important since I believe these same attributes are given to Christ and if that is the case, then we see Paul would have here been including Christ within the divine identity.

In fact, we see John did apply these to Christ. For his eternality, we saw that Jesus was in the beginning with God. There never was a time when the Son was not. We will see this more when we get into the wonderful epistle of the Hebrews.

John again reminds us of the immortality of Jesus in that no one can take the life of Jesus, but he willingly lays it down. Jesus could die in his humanity, in that his soul could be separated from his body, but he could not die in his deity. He could not cease to exist.

Now as a man, he is of course visible when in the body, but Jesus in his deity is invisible. We know this because he is the one through whom all things came, including matter, the instrument by which anything is seen by material beings.

Paul’s statement is a statement of monotheism. However, it is not a statement of monotheism that excludes Jesus from the divine identity. One can believe in a divine identity with multiple persons and still be a monotheist.

We shall continue this tomorrow.

Welcome back everyone to Deeper Waters, hopefully one of your favorite blogs to increase your understanding of the Christian faith in relation to apologetics and philosophy. Tonight, we’re going to conclude our look at the Trinity in 2 Thessalonians by looking at chapter 3. We have a strong message on who Jesus is right at the beginning of this chapter. We’ll be going from verse 1-5:

¹Finally, brothers, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. ²And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men, for not everyone has faith. ³But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one. ⁴We have confidence in the Lord that you are doing and will continue to do the things we command. ⁵May the Lord direct your hearts into God’s love and Christ’s perseverance.

We have at the start the message of the Lord, and as we have seen, Lord consistently refers to Jesus. Due to the eschatological emphasis of this book, the constant mentioning of the Lord Jesus Christ could serve as a reminder of the one through whom God will fulfill his eschatological plans. Again, we are not going to get into the secondary points of eschatology, but all eschatological viewpoints can agree that the work of Christ being central in eschatology reveals a high Christology.

Paul wants his readers to know about evil men who are troubling him. Paul encourages his readers to pray for him as he continues the spread of the gospel along with his colleagues that they will be delivered from such men. It is easy to skip over this point, but the next verse reminds us of something revealing. After all, how would the readers do this other than by prayer?

Yet what does Paul say? The Lord is faithful. In essence, Paul is saying that the Lord is the one who is hearing their prayers, which would point to his omnipresence in being able to hear the prayers of all the believers in Thessalonica. Furthermore, he is seen as powerful in that he is able to strengthen all the believers. In the last point, he is able to stand against the evil one. This is hardly light terminology to be used to describe Christ!

He then says that their confidence is also in the Lord. Again, Paul could be pointing out the eschatological significance of the Lord, but let us not overlook the fact that it is the Lord that he keeps emphasizing. For Paul, Christ was central to the Christian life even in prayer.

Finally, it is the Lord who he hopes will direct their hearts to the love of God. There is no way to get to the love of God unless one goes through Christ. You will not find any love that does not come through him in some way. Insofar as that happens, it is Christ who will be the one who perseveres the people as they face the evil of their opponents in the love of God.

Tomorrow, we begin the pastoral letters.

Hello everyone! Today is being a really good day! There have been two compliments, one of which was a very friendly endorsement I just found out about! It is such a joy when you know that what you are doing in ministry matters. Enough time later on to celebrate however! Tonight, we’re going to be looking at 2 Thessalonians 2:13-17. Let’s go to the text.

¹³But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. ¹⁴He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. ¹⁵So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.¹⁶May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, ¹⁷encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

I hope that those of you who have been reading this blog for awhile have noticed the need to look for Trinitarian passages.  I also hope that any new readers will also notice that need. I chose this passage tonight because it is thoroughly Trinitarian.

Notice that the thanks go to God at the beginning, so here we have the Father being referred to. What is next? They are loved by the Lord. By the Lord, we of course have  learned that this normally refers to Jesus and we have no reason to think otherwise in this passage. Finally, there is the mention of sanctification through the Spirit. The Spirit is the one that comes and brings about holiness in the lives of the believers.

Paul continues mention of the work that is going on. Believers are the ones who are called by God. God is the subject of this section, but the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ are not absent. This was done so we could share in the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe this means that when the time comes that Christ is exalted before all the world, that it will be a known reality for all the world. We will participate in it in that we will be giving glory to Christ and he will honor us for honoring him.

Finally, Paul asks that our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God the Father encourage the believers in Thessalonica. The Lord Jesus Christ himself refers to the unique position that Jesus holds in the thought of Paul. Jesus himself is to be the one who is encouraging. Note also that Paul speaks of God the Father, which is a point we’ve noticed numerous times. There was a distinction that was being made. Paul doesn’t say “God and Lord” as that could refer to one person, but he takes both titles of deity and applies one to Jesus and one to the Father.

Once again, we see that in even a basic encouragement, Trinitarianism is essential for Paul.

Good evening everyone. Things have gone well for me today. I’m in a really good mood as we start off tonight and let’s hope it lasts. I appreciate everyone who has been praying for me as I do believe as I ponder it that those prayers are being effective. Those who know me know that I depend on the support of those closest to me in many ways.

Moving on to the blog, we’re going to be starting 2 Thessalonians tonight and we’re going to look at the 1st chapter. Our verses will b2 6-10:

⁶God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you ⁷and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. ⁸He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. ⁹They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power ¹⁰on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

I spoke yesterday of the need to abandon the constant idea we have of gentle Jesus meek and mild. Now in some ways, Jesus is meek and mild. That’s to sinners who are repentant and come before him seeking his love and mercy. For those who refuse him however, he does not have any such attitude.

Notice how Jesus is the one who comes as judge rather than YHWH in this case and he is surrounded by fire. In the OT, fire was a constant symbol for the judgment of God. Our God is said to be a consuming fire. Fire is also used as a picture of Hell, which is spoken of in this passage as everlasting destruction. (I do hold to the traditional view of Hell as everlasting torment, but that is not the point here.)

The reason for this is the rejection of his gospel. It is his good news. He is the one who is the focal point of the gospel. The gospel tells of all that God did in Jesus and through Jesus. It is the gospel that God sent his Son and let his Son be crucified on a cross and raised his Son from the dead in vindication. In this way, to deny the Son is certainly to deny the Father.

Note also what happens. This will be the day he comes to be glorified among his holy people. In the OT, it was always about the people of YHWH who were to be holy. In the NT, it is about Jesus and his people. His people are the ones who are to be holy and instead of YHWH being glorified, it is Jesus. As Trinitarians, this is what we expect to see.

We are not surprised at all by this passage but rather find that it fits in perfectly with Trinitarian thought. Jesus is the focal of the gospel and he is the one who is to be glorified and the one who has a holy people amongst whom he will be revealed. How is it one can miss the connection between this and YHWH In the Old Testament?

Hello everyone. Thank you again for the prayers and I do ask that you all keep praying for me. I am working hard on making some needed changes in my life. It will be a process and a painful one, but it is one that needs to be done. For tonight however, we are going to finish the book of 1 Thessalonians by talking about the Day of the Lord. I will be quoting verse 2 of the fifth chapter:

²for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Now once again, I wish to remind you readers that we are not going to get into eschatology tonight. I instead wish to focus on the topics that all Christians agree on. I wish to bring up this passage because in the Old Testament, the Day of the Lord is a frequent appeal and we find that that hasn’t changed in the New Testament.

When the prophets spoke about an event called the Day of the Lord, they were making reference to the idea of a king who would be so powerful that he would defeat all of his enemies in a single day. Now I don’t believe that the Day of the Lord necessarily always refers to the same day, but it did refer to a time when YHWH would vanquish his enemies.

When we move over to the New Testament however, it is Jesus who is seen as the Lord. In the fifth chapter and in much of 1 Thessalonians, the Lord refers to Christ and it is the day in which he comes and defeats his enemies.

What this tells us is that Paul had no hesitancy to take this imagery of YHWH and apply it to Jesus. Just as YHWH in the Old Testament would be the one who came and defeated his enemies, in the New Testament, it is Jesus who comes and defeats his enemies. Now how you handle that eschatologically will be up to you. This blog does not go into that.

This should also reveal to us something of how Paul saw Jesus as a judge. Too often, we have thought of gentle Jesus meek and mild. Jesus is the good shepherd, yes, but the good shepherd is the one who comes and deals with those who are attacking the flock. Do not forget for a moment that he is the Lion of Judah.

Throughout the rest of the chapter in fact, we see a constant reference to the Lord Jesus Christ and to his wrath. He is the one who is the judge and we know from John that judgment has been entrusted to the Son. He is the one before whom all will bow someday. 1 Thessalonians should help remind us of that. When we come to Jesus in the text, we must remember that he is not just loving but he is also just and that he does take sin seriously and that he does have wrath.

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Deeper Waters. I wish to thank everyone for praying for me this weekend and for my safe travels. Those who know where I was know that I had an awesome time and have decided to work harder on being the man I ought to be. I ask everyone continue to pray for me as I believe there is much that I need to work through.  For now, we are going to return to 1 Thessalonians and continue our study of the deity of Christ. Tonight, we’re going to go to a passage that the Jehovah’s Witnesses use to demonstrate that Jesus is Michael the archangel. We will be reading 1 Thess. 4:16.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Now I know some of you might have a hard time believing it, but I plan on discussing this verse without getting into eschatology. If you want to talk about when you think the rapture will occur, then you’ll have to go somewhere else. We are only looking at this passage insofar as it relates to who Jesus is.

I’ve not heard this one used often by Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I do want to bring it up as some do. Now I don’t think it’s heretical to believe Jesus is Michael. Some Christians have been open to that. It’s my understanding that even John Calvin held to that.

Of course, if one holds to this, this is okay provided that they do not deny who Jesus is in his deity. I personally do not believe that Jesus is Michael, but I am not going to think someone is cut off from the body if they think that because  a number of strong Christians throughout history have thought that.

Now how do the Witnesses use this verse? They will look at it and say that if Jesus is returning with the voice of the archangel, then it is obvious that he is the archangel Michael. When I heard this in a class at our church, I raised my hand and made a point and only found out that I had jumped the gun. Now my answer didn’t come straight from me to be fair, but it was in the memory, which I say to remind you that few of us will come up with original answers and we should all be willing to learn from those who have gone before us.

The question to ask is “Then doesn’t having the trump of God make him God by the same standard?” The Witnesses seem to routinely interpret part of a verse how they want and then ignore the other part and refuse to interpret it the other way since that will go against their doctrine.

Now does this passage prove the deity of Christ? No. I’m not saying it does. Part of what we need to do however is not just present the positive side but give the answers to the negative side. Remember all in apologetics that it is important to do both. Build a positive case and be ready to answer criticisms. On the flip side, if you can destroy they the case against the deity of Christ but not make one for, you’ve only done half the job. We as Christians must always be prepared to do both.