What’s coming up on this Saturday’s episode of the Deeper Waters Podcast? Let’s dive into the Deeper Waters and find out.
First off, we unfortunately had to postpone the interview we had scheduled with Matthew Flannagan. Why? I came down with a virus and I was in no condition whatsoever to do an interview. Unfortunately, my wife was a recipient of my generosity and she is just now starting to get over it. So if you’re wondering why the latest episode didn’t upload on ITunes, that’s why.
Now I am in good enough health that I am ready to continue doing the show again and this Saturday, we’re doing a show in preparation for Halloween. As you can expect, there’s a lot going on around this time of year. Many Christians wonder if they should participate in Halloween. There is also supposed to come out this weekend the movie “Ouija.” Is this just a harmless children’s game or is there something more to it?
Years ago, Gary Habermas advised me to not study the occult for myself. It can be too powerful of a draw. Instead, I should save such discussions for those who have come out of it and know it from the inside-out. I am fortunate to be friends with one such person and am honored that this Saturday I get to welcome Marcia Montenegro to the Deeper Waters Podcast.
Prior to trusting Christ, Marcia was involved for many years in Eastern and New Age beliefs, and was a licensed professional astrologer for 8 yrs. During that time, she also taught astrology, and was President of the Metropolitan Atlanta Astrological Society. Marcia has a Masters in Religion from Southern Evangelical Seminary, Charlotte, NC, and is a missionary with Fellowship International Mission. Through her ministry, Christian Answers for the New Age, she has spoken in 30 states and is a frequent guest on radio, and has published articles in several Christian publications, informing Christians about the New Age as well as reaching out to those who are part of it. Marcia is the mother of an adult son, and is the author of SpellBound: The Paranormal Seduction of Today’s Kids (Cook, 2006).
Marcia has now come out of the New Age movement and has devoted her life to helping others to come out of it. In fact, many times I have messaged her about something that sounds as if it was New Age to get her opinion on it. Unfortunately, much of this can also be found in the Christian church as many of the notions that are seen as popular today are actually quite occult in their mindset. (Consider the Word of Faith movement as an example of this.)
I hope you’ll be listening as you and your family prepare for Halloween just as ours is. You want your children to be fun and safe this time of year and you also should want to know about any dangers of the occult that you might not be aware of. Please be watching your podcast feed for the latest episode of the Deeper Waters Podcast featuring Marcia Montenegro.
What’s coming up on this week’s episode of the Deeper Waters Podcast? Let’s talk about it on Deeper Waters.
To begin with, for those who have not been able to hear the podcast lately, it’s through no fault of our own. The one who hosted our show decided that their ministry needed to be more focused towards youth and for some strange reason, Deeper Waters didn’t fit in with that. (We’ll see how much of that changes when these youth go to college and meet a Bart Ehrman type.) Fortunately, we have recently found a new host for our shown, the Universal Pentecostal Network. (Not affiliated with the denomination)
Anyway, what is coming up? Well this Saturday, we’re going to be interviewing one of the members of what has been called the first wave of apologetics and has been doing apologetics long before a number of us were even born. Many of us doing apologetics today owe what we do in part to my guest if not directly, then indirectly, seeing as he probably helped many others find out about the field. My guest is Dr. James Sire.
James W. Sire has retired as senior editor and campus lecturer for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. He holds a Ph.D. in English from the University of Missouri (1964), an M.A. in English from Washington State University (1958) and a B.A. in Chemistry and English from the University of Nebraska (1955).
He served as an officer in the U. S. He has taught English, philosophy and theology at a number of universities, serving as associate professor of English at Nebraska Wesleyan University and Northern Illinois University. Over the past thirty years, he has taught short courses at the University of Delaware, Regent College (Vancouver), Wheaton Graduate School, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Biola University, University of the Nations, Evangelical Theological Seminary, Osijek, (Croatia), Biblical Theological Seminary, Wroclaw (Poland) and many other academic institutions in the U.S. and Europe.
Dr. Sire is the author of several books including The Universe Next Door,(now in its 5th edition; adopted as a text on worldviews in over 200 universities and seminaries; over 350,000 in print; translated into eighteen languages), Scripture Twisting, Discipleship of the Mind, Chris Chrisman Goes to College, Why Should Anyone Believe Anything at All?, Habits of the Mind: Intellectual Life as a Christian Calling, Václav Havel: The Intellectual Conscience of International Politics, Naming the Elephant: Worldview as a Concept,Learning to Pray Through the Psalms, Why Good Arguments Often Fail, A Little Handbook on Humble Apologetics, Praying the Psalms of Jesus,Deepest Differences: A Christian-Atheist Dialogue with Carl Peraino, and Rim of the Sandhills (eBook). His most recent publications are Echoes of a Voice: We Are Not Alone (May 2014) and Apologetics Beyond Reason: Why Seeing is Believing (August 2014).
He has lectured on over 250 university campuses in the U.S., Canada and Europe. During one typical academic year, Dr. Sire spoke on over 20 campuses in the U.S. and several in Croatia, Yugoslavia, Romania, Belgium and the Netherlands. His most recent lectures were sponsored by his Bulgarian publisher and given in June 2012 in Sofia. He has addressed groups of undergraduates, graduate students and faculty with talks that range from pre-evangelistic and evangelistic to academic and analytic on topics of interest to students and faculty in the arts, humanities, social sciences, natural sciences and technical fields.
He counts among his current interests (1) the application of worldview thinking to the integration of Christian faith and the academic disciplines (2) the critiques of worldview analysis as a major form of Christian critical thought and of understanding modern and ancient cultures and (3) the nature of signals of transcendence and their relation to Christian life, especially apologetics.
My first introduction to Sire came in Bible College when I was recommended to read Scripture Twisting and later for a class we were assigned as our textbook The Universe Next Door. That latter book has often been a textbook used in classes and is still to this day an excellent introduction to the subject of worldview thinking.
We’ll actually be talking about three books of his this time. We’ll be looking at the past with Rim of the Sandhills, then we’ll see why he still believes in Christianity today with looking at his book Echoes of a Voice, and finally see what he thinks we should be doing in the future with Apologetics Beyond Reason.
This is an interview I’m looking forward to to hear someone we could all see as a great mentor in apologetics. I hope you’ll be listening in. I will be recording from 3-5 PM EST this Saturday.
What is Deeper Waters and why does it matter? Let’s talk about it on Deeper Waters.
If you’re on my Facebook page, you probably know by now that today, I celebrate 34 years of life. On such a day as this, I try to look back and see how it is I got where I am, but for the most part, I want to tell you all where I think Deeper Waters is going and why I’m so excited about it and why the ministry that we’re doing here is so special.
First off, a lot of this stuff can be covered in the newsletter. If you’re not getting our monthly newsletter and would like to be a part of it, then please let me know. You can email me at Apologianick@gmail.com and let me know that you want to be a subscriber. If you do this route, please include something in the subject line so I will recognize you. I too get a lot of spam. You can also go to our Facebook group and sign up. While there, please “like” Deeper Waters.
Second, I will be speaking this evening in the Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge area. I’m the opening speaker at a conference and the point of my talk will be the importance of Christian apologetics today. I’m quite excited to have this opportunity where my invitation just came out of the blue and to get to be a recognized speaker at an event is an honor.
Third, next Friday, my wife and I both will be speaking at the Freedom Church of God for their “God’s Not Dead” conference. I will be speaking on the historicity of the resurrection. My wife will meanwhile be giving her first ever talk at a conference. She will be speaking on the problem of evil from the perspective of a layman and how the reality of God has helped her overcome evil in her life.
Fourth, I will be speaking the first Sunday of October at Farragut Church of Christ for their adult Sunday School class. I will be doing a lesson I’ve wanted to do for some time where I will be speaking on Christian marriage. I’m convinced that if we want to turn the tide in our country on marriage, we need more than good arguments. We need good marriages and I want to encourage people to celebrate their spouses and their marriages. I thoroughly believe that the world doesn’t honor marriage because the church failed to honor it first.
What else do we have up ahead in the works?
There’s always the Podcast. I am constantly trying to get the best guests on. Next month I will be interviewing James Sire, a classic in apologetics for decades, as well as Graham Veale on his book on the new atheism. I will also interview Matthew Flannagan on a book he’s written with Paul Copan on war in the OT as well as interviewing Marcia Montenegro on Christianity and the New Age Movement. If you like the podcast, then please go to ITunes and leave a positive review. It just thrills me when I go and see new comments. So many of you surprise me by telling me how much you like the show.
Also, Ebooks. We have one on the new atheism in the works and as it stands, I’m also writing one on dealing with internet memes today. It’s going to be a brief look at a topic sometimes followed by other recommended resources that could be used to further understand the topic. Memes being used as arguments instead of just a humorous punch is a great problem today with internet debate.
In the middle of all of this I’m going to be working on my Master’s still so yes, I am a busy busy guy. Not only that, but I’m also leading a men’s group on Sunday nights for our church where we talk about apologetics issues. I also do work for my church in writing out material that is used for our studies so know that your support of Deeper Waters does go to work that I am doing.
Let’s talk about that right quick. Donations. Really, I don’t like doing this part, but it’s something that has to be done. Your donations just thrill me. Each time I get one in it tells me that this is someone who has been impacted by Deeper Waters and wants me to keep going. If you want to donate, you can see the section on the side where it says to help support the work of Deeper Waters Christian Ministries. Now if you click that link that will take you to Risen Jesus. Please consider donating and especially, becoming a monthly donor. If you do make a donation, and I cannot stress this part enough, make sure you email me afterwards at Apologianick@gmail.com and say “I’m X and I just made a donation of Y to your ministry.” I will pass it on to my mother-in-law who runs the finances of RisenJesus, the ministry of Mike Licona, and they will make sure that it goes to me. Your donation that way will also be tax-deductible.
Now some of you might be wondering why I don’t just set myself up as a 501c3 and not go through Risen Jesus. That’s because becoming a 501c3 costs money and right now, we don’t have enough monthly donors to justify that. It will be wonderful when we get to that day, but so far, we are not there yet.
I really hope you all appreciate the work that is done here at Deeper Waters. We are trying to bring the best and your support means everything. If the fruit of this ministry has done you good, why not consider becoming an investor in it? If you cannot do that at that time, then please pray for the ministry and share the material that we have and let other people know.
Be praying for me tonight as I give this important talk! For all who have been friends and supporters to me this far, I cannot thank you enough. I would not be where I am today were it not for you.
What’s coming up on this next episode of the Deeper Waters Podcast? Let’s talk about it on Deeper Waters.
To begin with, for those concerned my guest had to cancel last Saturday and I chose to just cancel the show due to situations going on here that I thought needed my more urgent attention. That means unless you check my blog page, you’ve been wondering who’s going to be on the show this Saturday? Wonder no more! My guest is going to be Rick Mattson, author of the book “Faith Is Like Skydiving.”
His bio describes him as:
“Rick Mattson serves as a traveling evangelist/apologist for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, appearing at 50 campuses the past five years. The most common event he holds on campus is called “Stump the Chump,” where students can come and ask the “Chump,” Rick, any question about Christianity. His home base is Macalester College in St. Paul, MN, where he serves as the InterVarsity Staff worker. When not on the road, Rick enjoys times with his wife, kids, and grandkids, golf, and writing.”
Unfortunately, we don’t have call-ins to the show anymore so we won’t be able to play a game of Stump The Chump, but we will be able to have a good talk about an excellent book.
Mattson’s work serves as a fine usage of analogies to help someone better understand the deep ideas of Christianity and relate them to students. Through years of college ministry, he’s got to have that interaction that involves the answering of questions and the spreading of the Gospel through apologetics endeavors.
The book is a result of all of that. If you want to know the kinds of arguments that he uses while on the road, then all you need to do is pick up this book. In it, you will find a wonderful conversational approach that can be used whether you’re a chump being quizzed on in the center of a college campus or whether you’re at the water cooler at work or just caught in a Facebook or internet debate of some kind.
His style is easy to learn and you will find insights that will help you explain matters and the analogies I find to be quite revealing. To this day, I have not yet shook the analogy that Hell is like an empty pub. While I do not necessarily agree with the view on Heaven and Hell, I certainly can see that this is a way to better explain it to people rather than using terminology that is highly misunderstood today and will bring to mind more Dante’s inferno than anything else.
Also, if anyone is interested, we will be recording this podcast on the road as well. As it turns out, I will be in the nearby Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge area tomorrow to give the premier talk at a conference where I will be speaking on the importance of apologetics and the people running it have been nice enough to pay for a hotel room for Allie and I on Friday and Saturday night. (To boot, tomorrow happens to be my 34th as well and what better gift is there than getting to give a talk on a topic I am so fascinated with.) Please be praying that this goes well.
I hope you’ll be watching for a new link to show up in your ITunes feed. Again, don’t worry about missing one last week! Just be prepared to tune in and enjoy this week!
What’s coming up on the Deeper Waters Podcast? Let’s talk about it on Deeper Waters.
I’m afraid some of you are going to be disappointed. My guest Trevor Ray Slone had to cancel his appearance earlier this week due to some reasons of his own, and so I decided to book….
No one.
Because as it happens, I have my own situation going on and my wife really needs me for something at the moment and I figured it would be good for us to just spend as much of Saturday together as we could. Now I do plan on having the show again on the next Saturday, but for this Saturday, I ask the fans of the podcast to understand that sometimes, things like this happen and please pass it on to anyone you know who is curious about where a new episode is.
You see, while I think my show is an excellent show, I know it’s not the only one of its kind. There are plenty of great sources out there to get apologetics and there are several other excellent podcasters out there who are doing their part to bring apologetics information. I hope I fill a unique niche with my lengthy interviews with scholars on various fields, but I also know that there are others that you can listen to and in fact, I would encourage you to listen to not just me.
So yes, there are plenty of people who can supply you with apologetics information. If something ever happened to me, apologetics would still go on strong. I’m not essential. There are plenty of other people out there who can debate unbelievers and answer questions. I’m glad I get to do what I do and I love it, but I know there are others who can do it. Also, no. I am in no way quitting. I’m just focusing on the family this weekend and next week, everything should be normal again.
Despite that, if you’re in ministry, I really want you to hear this message. I don’t just mean if you’re in apologetics ministry. I mean if you’re in any ministry capacity and if you’re a woman, just switch the language around as need be.
Many people can do what you do, but only one person can be a husband to your wife. If you have children, many people can do what you do, but only one person can be a father to your children.
I have also said that if you become an apologist who can answer every question and can leave every atheist scared to face you in the debate arena, but you have not been a husband to your wife or a father to your children, then as far as I’m concerned, you’re a failure in ministry.
If you are a husband, your task is to love your wife as Christ loved the church and present her faultless before the throne. That’s a big responsibility. Sometimes, if we’re in ministry we can be thinking “What I’m doing is for God so I get an exception.” No. There are no exceptions to this rule. You have a divine responsibility and before the throne of God saying “I was serving you” won’t make a valid excuse. Obedience in one area does not equal disobedience in another, and too many people in ministry have found themselves married to their ministry instead of their spouses.
So this Saturday, I’m taking that necessary break. In fact, if you haven’t seen me on Facebook often, there’s a reason for that. I haven’t been answering questions or anything like that. That will have to wait until next week. I really hope everyone understands, but if you don’t, well that’s just too bad.
I do hope you’ll be here next Saturday for the next episode of the Deeper Waters Podcast and please go to ITunes as well and write a favorable review. I love to see them!
What’s coming up on the Deeper Waters Podcast? Let’s talk about it on Deeper Waters.
Morality. Most of us do agree that there is such a thing, although a growing number are increasingly saying that they don’t, which is quite frightening. We know that there is a good and there is an evil and we have a good idea about what it is we are to do. This is a phenomenon of reality that needs to be explained. How do we do it? To find out about this, I’m having R. Scott Smith come on the Deeper Waters Podcast.
Who is he?
Professor of Ethics & Christian Apologetics in the MA Christian Apologetics program, Biola University (starting my 15th year)
MA, Philosophy of Religion & Ethics, Talbot; PhD, Religion & Social Ethics, USC
Author of 4 books: In Search of Moral Knowledge (IVP, 2014), Naturalism and Our Knowledge of Reality (Ashgate, 2012), Truth and the New Kind of Christian: The Emerging Effects of Postmodernism in the Church (Crossway, 2005), and Virtue Ethics and Moral Knowledge (Ashgate, 2003).
Contributor to several books, journals, and other magazines/websites
What we will be talking about is the latest book of his, In Search of Moral Knowledge.
Smith’s book is a fascinating one that takes you through a tour of ancient philosophy, biblical theology and ethics, the medieval period, and then modern theories, including naturalistic theories, that attempt to give a grounding for the morality that we all seem to share. What theory best accounts for it? In the end, he decides that the Christian worldview is the best worldview for explaining morality.
We will be asking a lot of questions along the way of course. Since the book starts off with looking at the early Greek philosophers, one question that can come to mind is “Why should we care?” After all, if we are Christians, don’t we have the Bible to tell us right from wrong? Why should Christians bother studying the ideas of Plato and Aristotle since this isn’t part of inspired literature? Can it really help us to understand morality?
When it comes to biblical ethics, at this point, it is the atheist who will have a rejoinder. “Yes. Let’s talk about biblical ethics. Let’s talk about slavery and genocide and all of that stuff. Remember, all of this is what shows up in the ‘Good Book.’ Why should I take the Bible as a relevant source on morality when it contains so much that is immoral?”
As we go through the medieval period, we can ask what we have really gained from all of this. Most of us today do still have a good idea of right and wrong. Did the medieval period really contribute in any significant way to what we know about reality? Does it really help us to understand what people like Aquinas thought about morality?
Finally, we will be looking at modern ideas from Christians and non-Christians and seeing how they add up and asking if morality can really be explained in an atheistic worldview? If it can’t be, then why is it that we should think that the Christian worldview is the best explanation for morality?
If you’re interested in the moral argument for God’s existence, then I urge you to please subscribe to the Deeper Waters Podcast on ITunes and be watching your feed for this latest episode! You won’t want to miss it!
Do Right Wing Christians want to abuse homosexuals? Let’s talk about it on Deeper Waters.
Today, I turn the reins of the blog black over to my wife Allie. Please let her know what you think.
We have arrived at part 7. Abusing and killing queers is evil. (http://www.alternet.org/belief/9-truly-evil-things-right-wing-christians-do?page=0%2C2) To me, I find this honestly kind of silly to even discuss, but apparently it’s an important one to discuss. We all know abusing and murdering any person is evil, and that is why I honestly find this rediculous that we need to talk about this. But let’s get to this:
So first the article complains about these particular verses:
(Romans 1:26-27 KJV) “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”(
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV with their emphasis) “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
(1 Timothy 1:9-10 KJV with their emphasis) “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.”
(Jude 1:7-their emphasis) “Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
Apparently these verses are called “clobber verses.” I don’t understand why they’re called clobber verses. No where in these verses do I see anything about “clobbering.” I don’t see anywhere about beating homosexuals and killing homosexuals. All these verses are doing is explaining that homosexuality is as much of a sin as any other sin. It’s just saying it as it is. You don’t like it’s a sin, then tough! I’m sure when you’re angry you wish it was okay to murder sometimes, but you know that’s wrong. Just because you want to do it doesn’t make it right! The writer of the article says
“For much of American history, the common term for queer was the biblical “sodomite,” implying that gays are so offensive to God that they pose a threat to society as a whole.”
Yea, homosexuality is offensive to God, just as offensive as any other sin! As I have explained in another part of this series in responding to this article, I have struggled with bisexual tendancies. Whether you struggle with tendancies like me, or you have it full-blown, it is a struggle, just as every sin is a struggle that we deal with. It makes it even harder when everyone around us are telling us, “It’s fine! It’s just how you are! You’re born that way! It’s normal! Be who you are!” People, I’m not asking you to not be true to yourself, but your sexuality doesn’t make you who you are! It’s a part of you, but it’s not your identity! It’s like my Asperger’s Syndrome. It’s a part of me, but it’s not my identity! I have AS, but it’s not me! You are born into a sinful world and in this sinful world you are exposed to sin constantly. Your innocence is continually being stripped away – some are stripped away quicker than others due to abuse. As much as you may not want to hear it, you were born with a sin nature. We were all born with a sin nature. Our sin natures are different, but we all have them – even Christians. Some lean on sexual sins (homosexuality, pedophilia, even cheating on a marital spouse), others lean on kleptomania (stealing), even others lean on hatred and murder. What do you think addictions are? They are placing things above God. I have a very addictive personality and get addicted to things very easily. I have struggled with different addictions for years (from pornography to eating constantly). But I read something today that said, “Jesus is a friend of sinners.” It’s so true! I have friends, but I have no greater friend than the Lord of the universe! He is my truest friend as cliche as that sounds. I know if everyone abandoned me – my friends, my husband, my family, I would still have my God by my side, and he’s never going to leave me nor forsake me. So yes, homosexuality is offensive to God, but so is every other sin! All of my sins are just as offensive to God as all of your sins!
The writer then says, “Thanks to Christian missionaries, African and Latin American queers also have now lived for centuries now under the threat of violent death.” Not all Christian missionaries are supporting this, I would go as far as saying very few Christian missionaries support this. Christians who are out to kill homosexuals have their own agenda’s and a real problem with hate – and that in itself is a sin. God doesn’t want a homosexual killed just as much as he doesn’t want anyone else killed. The majority of Christians don’t want homosexuals killed. Christians may not support homosexuality, but they do not wish for them to be killed. Christians who kill homosexuals are shameful and I believe are even more responsible for their sin than those who don’t follow Christ because they know the truth; they are to show the love of God! Murdering people is NOT showing God’s love! As Christians, we are to be ambassadors of Christ, we are to represent him, and if we kill someone due to hate, we are even more responsible than those who don’t follow Christ!
To my brothers and sisters in Christ, it’s okay to hate the sin of homosexuality. BUT to hate the sinner, the people, the homosexuals, this is WRONG! Please, I beg of you, show God’s love to them, not hate. You don’t have to support their lifestyle to show his love. In fact, don’t! Make it clear this is against the Word of God! With all the lies the world tells them, they need to know the truth! But do it all in love. Show compassion to them. They are as human as you and I are. They hurt just as much as you and I hurt. Christ died to save them just as much as you and I. His blood was shed for them just as much as you and I. Show God’s love to them. Be the light to them. For all you know, they may have no other light but the one you show them. Our next part will be 8. Destroying Earth’s web of life and impoverishing future generations is evil.
What’s coming up on the Deeper Waters Podcast this Saturday? Let’s talk about it on Deeper Waters.
Canon. It’s something a lot of Christians don’t think about. You open up your Bible and those books are there. They’re just there. Yet how did they get there? Why do you have the Gospel of Matthew and not The Gospel According To The Simpsons in your Bible? Why do you have the story of Genesis but you don’t have the Gilgamesh Epic?
Some of us have thought about this. We have to face the common objections that we see. We hear that the choosing of the books of the Bible was just arbitrary. We hear for the NT that many Gospels were excluded like the Gospel of Thomas. We see series on the History Channel like “Banned From The Bible.” We also hear today commonly on the internet that all the books of the Bible were chosen at the Council of Nicea in 325.
This indicates some have thought about this, but some haven’t thought as much as others. One person who has thought a lot about these issues is Lee McDonald.
According to his bio:
Dr. Lee Martin McDonald (Ph.D., University of Edinburgh, Scotland) has studied at many institutions including Cambridge University (England), Heidelberg University (Germany), and Harvard University. He is a professor of New Testament studies and president emeritus at Acadia Divinity College and former dean of the Faculty of Theology at Acadia Univeristy in Nova Scotia, Canada. He has taught New Testament Studies at Acadia, Sioux Falls Seminary, Fuller Theological Seminary, was a visiting scholar and professor at Princeton Theological Seminary in 2007 – 2008, and lectured in a variety of graduate institutions in Canada, the USA, Athens in Greece, Budapest, Prague, and elsewhere. He also served for six years as president of the international Institute for Biblical Research (a community of hundreds of Old and New Testament scholars), was a chaplain in the U.S. Army, a pastor for more than twenty years, and has served on boards of directors for three graduate schools of theology. Lee McDonald has written and/or edited more than 31 books and authored more than 100 articles and essays on biblical subjects, as well as on practical issues for the church.
Dr. McDonald is a member of the prestigious Studiorum Novi Testamentum Societas, the Society of Biblical Literature and the Institute for Biblical Resarch. He is an American Baptist ordianed minister and has served as a pastor and in leadership positions within the denomination. He regularly focuses on how the Bible came to be and also what biblical scholars are saying about Jesus in various churches as well as academic settings. He also addresses the question of the relevance of the Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient non-biblical resources for understanding Jesus in his context and various pasages in the New Testment as well as their relevance for canon formation. He is a specialist in the context of early Christianity and the origin of the Bible.
Dr. McDonald is quite the authority on the canon and not just the New Testament canon! It would be a treat to discuss just that even, but no, you’re going to get two canons for the price of one! We’re going to be talking about the formation of the Old Testament canon as well. Why is it that in both canons we have the books that we have and not the other ones? Is there any controlling conspiracy going on? Are Christians just trying to hide ideas about Jesus that they just don’t like?
In the end, it could realize that the truth is something far greater. It could actually be that we have the very books that God intended us to have and we do have a reliable source of information on the history of the people of God and the life of Jesus the Christ.
So please be watching your ITunes feed soon for the latest episode of Deeper Waters discussing the formation of the canon of Scripture with Dr. Lee McDonald.
What’s it like to come close to death and can you find hope afterwards? Let’s talk about it on Deeper Waters.
Many of you liked what I said about the death of Robin Williams. Today, I’m letting my wife Allie share some of her thoughts from a personal perspective.
I’m not sure if this is appropriate timing, but I feel like it might be a good time to share this. This is my story of my brush with death.
Five years ago, I was dealing with some heavy depression. I’ve always delt with heavy depression, but it reached a peak after a failed relationship with a guy I felt like I couldn’t take it anymore. I felt like the greatest thing I could do for the world…was for me to not be in it anymore. Besides…who would care? Who would miss me? I mean sure, my family would be upset, but surely they’d move on eventually right? Everyone dies after all…just not by their own hands. Of course, this is just how I thought. I thought if I left no one would care or miss me except for my family and they’d only be sad for a little while, but would eventually get over it. But the thing with suicide that is different from any other kind of death is that the family and friends will wonder, “How could I have missed the signs? Could I have prevented them from doing this? Could I have even been the cause of them doing this?”
So I grabbed whatever medicine I could. I couldn’t grab them all because some of them were with my parents in their bathroom in the bedroom. I remember chugging all those pills. It was midnight. After I took all the medicine, I called the guy and told him what I had done…he hung up on me. I started writing out a note. As I was writing it, my vision started become a little blurred and I became dizzy. Suddenly my dad opens my bedroom door. He asks me “What are you doing still up?” It must’ve been between 1:30-2:30am at this point. I told him I was just up writing something then I’d go to sleep. I gave him one last look and told him I loved him and gave him a hug…thinking, “This is the last time I’m ever going to see my dad…he doesn’t even suspect a thing.” He said he loved me too and left my room. Even as I type this I’m getting teary-eyed. When I looked in the mirror, I saw that I had four arms. I knew this was going to be a long night. At around 3am, it started getting really bad. I couldn’t write anymore. The room was moving. The floor was moving, the walls were moving. There were different colors. I started getting a headache and there was a ringing in my ears. I had to crawl to my bed. Finally, I reached my bed. As I layed flat on my bed, as still as I could, my feet felt like they were being lifted up, yet I could see they were still on my bed. I turned off the light next to my bed. My heart was racing faster than it’s ever raced before. It literally felt like it was going to come right out of my chest! I started having mild seizures. My body would suddenly start seizing on its own every now and then, but then it would stop. I was in a constant sweat, yet I had the chills. I was cold…yet hot. I was scared…I had heard that people who end their lives by their own hands go to hell because they didn’t trust God. I don’t believe this theory today, but at the time, it was a scary thought. I was praying and asking God to forgive me and asking God to please let me be with Him instead of being in hell. I also asked God to be with my family and let them know they weren’t to blame for my death. I had talked to a friend for a few hours until she absolutely had to go. That’s when I started praying and prayed all night. Then 8am comes. I never fell asleep and I had still been praying. My mom opens the door. She says, “Allie, where is your brother’s medication?” My vision wasn’t blurry anymore but I had a hard time focusing on her when I looked at her. The first thought that came to mind was, “Why am I not dead yet?” Then the next thought was, “I’ve been caught.” I told her, “Look in my bathroom.” She goes in my bathroom and I hear her yell my dad’s name, “Allie tried to kill herself!” As I type this I feel nauseated, I can still taste the poison I put in my body. I couldn’t really get out of bed. My dad had to help me walk. I couldn’t walk on my own. The seizing had stopped. My dad drove me to the hospital. My mom told me she fainted in the bathroom. We get to the hospital, and I feel terrible for the poor lady working at the front desk. As we were talking with her, I just started vomitting. I vomitted all over her and her nice suit. My dad just barely missed my vomit. I’ve been told my eyes were darting all over the place. I was admitted into the hospital in-patient. I was poked with needles seemed like every 10-15 minutes day and night for three days straight. My heart was still racing rapidly. Every now and then parts of my body would start shaking on their own, like my arm or my hand, or even a single finger, but then it would stop. My parents would visit often. They’d bring me Wendy’s since I hated hospital food. I couldn’t sleep, partially because of the IV that was in my wrist. Every time I started to doze off the darn thing would start beeping! I had to drink this weird cranberry juice that had some medicine in it that would make me go to the bathroom and man did it make me go! Even while I was in the hospital though, I had some crazy hallucinations. The screen that monitored my heart I thought had games on it. I thought the bed was moving and I even thought there were camera’s on the bed! I thought I heard drs whispering about me behind my back. I thought I had memories of the hospital, even though I had never been there before. I thought I heard a flute being played. Then the craziest one was I thought the room I was in was infested with red ants! Red ants crawling everywhere! The walls, ceiling, furniture, everywhere! They’d bunch up in certain places and if I looked up at the ceiling, they’d fall on me! But if they fell in my mouth, they tasted like paper. I got so scared, it all seemed so real! I had to talk to a neurologist and they had to reasure me what I was seeing, hearing, feeling, and even tasting weren’t real. I heard my dad even cancelled a debate or speaking engagement he had because he wanted to stay with me during that time. I had to have help going to the bathroom since I was hooked up to an IV and so many other stuff. I was absolutely miserable. I was really mad at God too. I mean, I had no intention on surviving. I had no intention on ending up in a hospital. I also knew after doing a stunt like this, I’d end up going to another hospital I feared even more than going to hell – a mental hospital. I had to go to one years prior for self-mutilation and it was one of the worst experiences I ever had. Sure enough, a lady came in and spoke with my mom and me and said, “We have a nice hospital your daughter can be transferred at from here.” I ended up going there afterwards. As they were getting me off the hospital bed, I still had to have help because I was so weak. They loaded me into the ambulance and transferred me to what I thought was going to be my worst nightmare – the mental hospital. I was so exhausted…after having not slept for four days/nights straight. When I got to the mental hospital, I barely stayed awake until finally I asked, “Can I go to bed?” They thought it was odd of me asking, but when I told them, they were okay with it. I finally got my first night of sleep that night. They came in first thing in the morning and took some blood only one time the whole time I was there. It actually wasn’t as bad as I thought it was going to be. It wasn’t like the first mental hospital I had been to prior. The staff was nice and it was kind of comfortable there. I was in-patient there for four days. I was then treated out-patient for a couple of weeks. While I was there, I was still angry with God for allowing me to live, but I tried to make the best of it. I was so hung over the guy I tried to end my life over, I thought, “If I get better, maybe he’ll take me back!” I didn’t realize at the time I had only been a guinea pig to him the whole time – he had never given a care about me. While I was being treated out-patient, I got an e-mail from someone saying, “I heard about you from (family friend) and heard you needed a friend. I’m Nick Peters. If you want to talk I’m here.” I was intrigued to say the least. So we corresponded back and forth. I’ll be the first to admit, I wasn’t the nicest to him. There were times I was pretty mean to him. But there were times where he could’ve been really mean back at me, but he wasn’t. There were times he showed he actually cared about me as a friend. At one point while we were talking online, I was really quiet about something and got upset (I don’t remember what it was about). All of a sudden I get this phone call from an unknown number. I answer it and they’re like, “Are you okay?” I ask, “Who is this?”
“Nick.”
“How did you get my number?”
“Facebook.”
He was actually worried about me because I got quiet. I started seeing other things in Nick other than him just being nice to me. I saw a joy in him about God I wanted to have. I had drifted a bit away from God and I missed having a close relationship with him. Instead of being angry with God, I tried to be thankful to him for rescuing me from death and tried to get closer to him again. I also started developing feelings for Nick. Eventually those feelings grew into something more and now we’ve been married for 4 years!
God didn’t just save my life from death that day though. My story is truly a miraculous one. What I have failed to mention and will mention now is that the doctors thought I was going to need a new liver. My liver and my vital organs should’ve failed. All those drugs I took (and I haven’t said which ones I took on purpose – but they were some pretty hefty meds) were in my system for eight hours before anyone found me that morning. I should’ve had organ failure. My liver should’ve died…I should’ve died. God not only saved my life, he protected my liver and my vital organs. The only damage that was done to me was emotional and I have some brain damage that has a 50% chance of healing. My story is one of hope, and I hope it gives you hope. That day God showed me a portion of his power. God said, “Live!” and I lived! Today I am thankful to be alive! God continues to show me his love and grace. He had compassion on me through this difficult time in my life. He has blessed me so much. He is a God filled with compassion. He is passionate for you! Give him your burdens, for his burden is light. He will give you rest.
What are my thoughts on the death of Robin Williams? Let’s talk about it on Deeper Waters.
When I heard the news of Robin Williams’s death, it was in an email and I thought “That can’t be right. Surely it must be another actor with that name. Robin Williams committing suicide?” I went to IMDB and saw the age given matched perfectly. It was quite a shock to hear and it was indeed tragic.
Let’s go ahead and say it right at the start. Suicide is always tragic.
None of us really like death, but in some cases, we can accept it to an extent. If our loved one is old and it’s “their time” we’re sorry to see them go, but we understand. If a soldier or a police officer or firefighter dies in the line of duty, we are sad to see that happen and we don’t really think it was their time, but we understand it.
Suicide though?
That leaves us with question after question.
I put something about this on my Facebook yesterday and someone told me about someone whose Dad had committed suicide when they were five years old and how they kept asking “Did my Dad not want to see me grow up?”
This person was in their 60’s and still asking.
Suicide will leave a mark on every family when it takes place. Every Thanksgiving and Christmas will be different. Wedding anniversaries and birthdays won’t be the same. Whenever the date of the suicide comes around, the people involved will remember it. Every time they think they will ask themselves “Was there anything I could have done differently? Could I have stopped this?”
And they will never find a satisfying answer to those questions.
For our family, Robin Williams was a treasure. When my wife and I were dating, we lived in different states about 250 miles apart so I’d often bring over movies when I came to see her. At that time, she struggled with depression and one movie I bought was Patch Adams, which is about a doctor who used humor to treat his patients.
If you’ve never seen the movie, Robin Williams’s character, Patch Adams, has set up his clinic and a girl, Carin, he has an interest in is one of his doctors that helps treat the patients. One time, she is alone and a man with mental illness of a severe nature comes to see her.
The next thing we hear is that he has murdered her.
Patch blames himself and in the following scene, we see him having a dialogue with God wondering if he can even go on.
As you see in the video, what stops him is a butterfly on his medical bag that flies on to his shirt and then he has on his finger. Why? Because Carin had said earlier how she wishes she could be a caterpillar so she could transform and fly away. Patch has his spirits renewed by this and continues his work.
Since marriage, we’ve watched a number of other films of his such as Jumanji and Mrs. Doubtfire and we did watch the only season of the Crazy Ones together. Allie also was happy to share with me about how his daughter was named Zelda, after the Legend of Zelda, a series Allie knows I thoroughly enjoy.
Since hearing the story of Williams’s death, I have also been given some hope in hearing that he had attended Redeemer Church where Tim Keller serves as pastor and that he has attended at least one other church in San Francisco on a regular basis and had been asking questions. Did he find the right answers? We can hope.
I do want to say a few other thoughts that come to me about this.
First, if you are a Christian who is making comments about someone being in Hell right now and doing so gleefully, shame on you. I have unfriended one person on Facebook who did this. It is not our call to make if someone is in Hell or not. Yet even if we were absolutely certain that they were, we should not be rejoicing in that fact.
Years ago when Saddam Hussein was still alive, someone messaged me on a forum I was in when the news came that Saddam’s sons had been found and killed and said “Isn’t this good news?” Now I was absolutely certain they were Muslims and outside the fold and I replied that it was good that the evil they would do on Earth had been stopped and they would never harm someone again, but it’s tragic that someone enters eternity without the grace of God.
Yes. Even our enemies.
I do believe in Hell, and if you agree with me, you should defend it similar to the way that you would defend the reality of the holocaust (Since there are holocaust deniers). Both should be seen as realities and both should be seen as things that you would prefer could be otherwise.
Christian. You may think someone didn’t do the best with their life, but the reality is, well, neither do you. We all screw up and make mistakes. On this point, I don’t care if you’re a Calvinist or an Arminian. We all know the only way we get to Heaven is by the grace of God. We do not deserve to be in the loving presence of God and walking with Jesus at all. We all need grace.
If you think Robin Williams didn’t make it, then just remember that if it wasn’t for the grace of God, neither would you. I, meanwhile, hold out hope. This is also so since I found that one of the books he read often to his children and one of his favorites was the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, and I hope he came to know who Aslan is in this world.
The next point is that suicide is a tragedy. This has been said, but some people have been sharing the meme of saying “Genie. You’re free.”
What does that mean really?
Do you really want to affirm the view of the suicide and the person contemplating suicide that this world is just awful and that we should all be seeking to escape it? Let us consider what G.K. Chesterton said about those who are suicides in contrast to those who are martyrs.
“A martyr is a man who cares so much for something outside of him, that he forgets his own personal life. A suicide is a man who cares so little for anything outside of him, that he wants to see the last of everything. One wants something to begin: the other wants everything to end.”
If you are a Christian, you should know that this is your Father’s world. This world is not all that it was meant to be. That’s true, but it is not Hell. There are plenty of good things here and one just needs to take the time to see them. Many times when I have been depressed, it has been the simple things that have brought me out, such as seeing my cat play with a toy. It can also be the love of other people, such as the touch of my wife.
You see, it’s okay to not always be in a happy mood. You’re not meant to always be happy. It’s okay to have a down day. You can’t force yourself to feel happy. If you could make yourself feel something, we’d all make ourselves feel joy. You’re not always responsible for your feelings, but you are responsible for what you do with them.
You might think Robin Williams is free today, but you know who isn’t?
If you’re reading this blog with sadness thinking about it, you’re one of the people who isn’t.
Neither are the immediate friends and family. The rest of the world is at a loss right now because of this tragedy. Suicide takes the pain that one person goes through and thrusts it instead on everyone else. It is a wound that will never be healed this side of eternity. It will be a constant reminder on the lives of everyone involved from then on.
I say this as someone familiar with it. Some of you know that when I was introduced to my now wife, it was when she was recovering from a suicide attempt.
How different things would be if she had succeeded.
And keep in mind for her, at one point, she thought it was all over. In fact, what she was doing was because of a bad relationship with a boy.
Would she have even dreamed that within about a year’s time, she’d be walking down the aisle to marry a totally different man who saw her at her worst and still loved her?
In fact, I wrote earlier this year about how she even won a beauty pageant earlier this year put on by Joni and Friends called the Miss Shining Star pageant for girls with disabilities.
I still remember it well. All the girls I had seen won had won the talent competition also. Allie had lost it in her division. There it was at the end and I was thinking “She’s not going to win it.” It just looked like she would lose this title.
And then they announced her name as Miss Shining Star.
She’ll also tell you I cried more than she did that day. It was just such a delight to see how far she had gone and how she had been so hesitant to enter this pageant and yet, she won it. Next year, she will pass her crown on to someone else so they can enjoy that privilege, but now, she is an inspiration that there is always hope.
And all of those might not have been.
In fact, each one of us is a “might not have been.”
None of us was required to exist. The world could have gone on just fine without our being here. None of us are essential to the story. Each of us has been given life and each of us is to decide what to do with it. I pray you’ll treat it as a gift.
Please remember this. Suicide is never the answer. Your pain might end at that point, but the pain you leave for others will never end.
Third point is one that seems odd coming from me, but it is true. My wife and I are Aspies and introverts. We don’t thrive on relationships like other people do, but we also know that relationships are important. I am incredibly thankful for the friendships that I have earned over the years. There is nothing like it. I am thankful for a family that raised me up in a Christian home and showed me love always, and I am thankful for the family that has become mine as well in my in-laws. They are honored to have me as a son-in-law and I am grateful.
I am also thankful for our church family. Just last Sunday, we celebrated Allie’s 24th birthday and some friends took us out to eat. Allie talked about how her family couldn’t do that since they were far away and my family can’t really afford it. This couple that took us out is in their 70’s and lead a group called Marriage Moments at our church. They know something about marriage. They’ve been married for 50+ years. Since our church is “The Point” they said to just think of them as their Point Parents.
That is something that I am sure will never leave me.
That evening, Allie and I watched Into The Storm with a gift card we’d been given by my parents. Allie really liked Twister and likes this one even more now. Still, as I saw it I was left in a somber state. I can assure you the movie is an awesome one that will have you on the edge of the seat, but I also think about the times that people were near-death and focusing on the relationships that they had formed over the years and wanting to tell people how much they loved them.
Allie would be the first to tell you how quiet and somber I was that evening.
Why? I’m a go-getter type of guy who wants to make the most of what I have and was thinking “Are we making the most of our time here now?”
Those relationships are important and of course, none of them will be perfect. You will not be a perfect spouse. You will not have a perfect spouse. You will not be a perfect parent. You will not have perfect children. You will not have perfect friends or be a perfect friend or have perfect siblings or be a perfect sibling.
And that’s okay.
Things won’t be perfect, but they can be great.
For we Christians, we should know this first and foremost. Our own God is eternally relational Himself in the Trinity.
Too often, we take these relationships for granted. We act like that person will always be here, and then a car accident takes place and they’re gone, or they get the news that they have cancer and their time is limited. We can often ask ourselves what we will do with the future, which is fine, but we need to ask ourselves what we’re going to do with this moment.
Of course, I am not saying be reckless with other people. As an introvert, I will not relate to everyone and there will be times that people like myself need to be away from the crowd and recharging, but even then, introverts need people too. Let us remember what C.S. Lewis said in The Weight of Glory.
“It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which,if you say it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree helping each other to one or the other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilites, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all of our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. nations, cultures, arts, civilizations – These are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit – immortal horrors or everlasting splendors.”
These are the people. These are the ones you will take with you into eternity. I am an avid lover of books and reading and the quest of knowledge. I hope my wife would agree however that I am a greater lover of her and I would hope ultimately also that I am a greater lover of God. The knowledge of God is subservient to God Himself after all.
Today, the world just doesn’t seem as funny because of a tragic event that has happened and made us all stop and think about what our lives really mean and what they’re all about. What we all would give right now to have had a butterfly come and land on Robin Williams at this time.
And if you are in this boat right now of considering taking your own life, please please please do not do it. Reach out and talk to someone. You can call the Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK. (1-800-273-8255) Please also find a good local church and talk to a good minister or counselor there. Just reach out and get some help. The Christian message is that every human life is valuable and precious by nature of what it is.
My own wife wrote about what she was dealing with in her journal last night and shared it on Facebook. (So yes, I am not sharing something private here and she knows I’m sharing this and is fine with it.)
As I was journaling tonight, I journaled a bit about the death of Robin Williams and it got me thinking about my own suicide attempt five years ago. Stories of suicide is very heart-breaking, and for me, they resonate very deeply because I was almost one of them. Here’s what I wrote, you may like it, you may not like it, but it’s the truth and is what’s on my heart:
Why…why did God rescue me from my suicide attempt…but he allows others to die? Why did he rescue me from my death but not other people? It almost makes me angry to have survived. I’m no more special than anyone else, I still haven’t figured out what I’m really good at, yet God decided to rescue me? Why? I was still a follower of Christ, if I had died, I would’ve gone to heaven and been with the Lord. But there are some who don’t follow him who kill themselves, and their despair is even worse in the afterlife instead of having peace. Why God…why did you rescue me from death…but you don’t rescue others from the grips of suicide? Their lives are just as precious as mine! Robin Williams was doing good in the world – he made people smile when they thought they couldn’t. But I don’t do any good in the world. I don’t make any contribution to the world. So why did you rescue me? My soul aches…people are hurting so much…and there is so much death around me…people killing each other…people killing themselves…this is not what you created us for! All this death and violence…this isn’t what you wanted for us! What are we to do in world that is killing itself and breaking down? Will we all eventually kill each other to the brink of extinction? No, that won’t happen. You promised you’ll come back for us. You promised you’d come back and reign over us on earth, just as you do in heaven. We still have hope! You won’t abandon us, you always keep your promises. I know you’ll come for us, and you’ll be our King. The world will finally know you are there! The world will finally bow down to you as LORD. You will rescue your servants. You will come for your children. You won’t leave us like this. We are waiting for you…come soon my LORD!
As you can see, she still has problems and attitudes she’s working with, but I like at the end what she’s doing. She’s seeking to find hope in God and frankly, where else will you find it? If Christ is not risen, then death will indeed have the last laugh. It will have it on the suicide or the murder victim or the martyr or anyone else. No one will escape it.
If Christ is risen, those of us in Him have the last laugh on death.
And speaking of laughs, let’s look back on the life of Robin Williams and remember he left us with several. We will miss him, but let’s not lose sight of them.
Please be in prayer for those who have been left behind from this tragedy.
R.I.P. Robin Williams.
In Christ,
Nick Peters
Edited to add: A kind reader suggested a guide to help those struggling with depression and other conditions that can be found here.
